Tag Archives: feedback

Set points, a mechanism for one at last.

Human biology is full of set points.  Despite our best efforts few can lose weight and keep it off.  Yet few count calories and try to eat so their weight is constant.  Average body temperature is pretty constant (despite daily fluctuations).  Neuroscientists are quite aware of synaptic homeostasis.

And yet until now, despite their obvious existence, all we could do is describe setpoints, not explain the mechanisms behind them.  Most ‘explanations’ of them were really descriptions.

Here is an example:

Endocrinology was pretty simple in med school back in the 60s. All the target endocrine glands (ovary, adrenal, thyroid, etc.) were controlled by the pituitary; a gland about the size of a marble sitting an inch or so directly behind the bridge of your nose. The pituitary released a variety of hormones into the blood (one or more for each target gland) telling the target glands to secrete, and secrete they did. That’s why the pituitary was called the master gland back then.  The master gland ruled.

Things became a bit more complicated when it was found that a small (4 grams or so out of 1500) part of the brain called the hypothalamus sitting just above the pituitary was really in control, telling the pituitary what and when to secrete. Subsequently it was found that the hormones secreted by the target glands (thyroid, ovary, etc.) were getting into the hypothalamus and altering its effects on the pituitary. Estrogen is one example. Any notion of simple control vanished into an ambiguous miasma of setpoints, influences and equilibria. Goodbye linearity and simple notions of causation.

As soon as feedback (or simultaneous influence) enters the picture it becomes like the three body problem in physics, where 3 objects influence each other’s motion at the same time by the gravitational force. As John Gribbin (former science writer at Nature and now prolific author) said in his book ‘Deep Simplicity’, “It’s important to appreciate, though, that the lack of solutions to the three-body problem is not caused by our human deficiencies as mathematicians; it is built into the laws of mathematics.” The physics problem is actually much easier than endocrinology, because we know the exact strength and form of the gravitational force.

A recent paper [ Neuron vol. 102 pp. 908 – 910, 1009 – 1024 ’19 ] is the first to describe a mechanism behind any setpoint and one of particular importance to the brain (and possibly to epilepsy as well).

The work was done at significant remove from the brain — hippocampal neurons grown in culture.  They synapse with each other, action potentials are fired and postsynaptic responses occur.  The firing rate is pretty constant.  Block a neurotransmitter receptor, and the firing rate increases to keep postsynaptic responses the same.  Increase the amount of neurotransmitter released by an action potential (neuronal firing) and the firing rate descreases.  This is what synaptic homeostasis is all about.  It’s back to baseline transmission across the synapse regardless of what we do, but we had no idea how this happened.

Well we still don’t but at least we know what controls the rate at which hippocampal neurons fire in culture (e.g. the setpoint).  It has to do with an enzyme (DHODH) and mitochondrial calcium levels.

DHODH stands for Di Hydro Orotate DeHydrogenase, an enzyme in mitochondria involved in electron transfer (and ultimately energy production).   Inhibit the enzyme (or decrease the amount of DHODH around) and the neurons fire less.  What is interesting about this, that all that is changed is the neuronal firing rate (e.g. the setpoint is changed).  However, there is no change in the intrinsic excitability of the neurons (to external electrical stimulation), the postsynaptic response to transmitter, the number of mitochondria, presynaptic ATP levels etc.

Even better, synaptic homeostasis is preserved.  Manipulations increasing or decreasing the firing rate are never permanent, so that changes back to the baseline rate occur.

Aside from its intrinsic intellectual interest, this work is potentially quite useful.  The firing rate of neurons in people with epilepsy is increased.  It is conceivable that drugs inhibiting DHODH would treat epilepsy.  Such drugs (teriflunomide) are available for the treatment of multiple sclerosis.

The paper has some speculation of how DHODH inhibition would lead to decreased neuronal firing (changes in mitochondrial calcium levels etc. etc) which I won’t go into here as it’s just speculation (but at least plausible spectulation).

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The death of the pure percept — otoacoustic division

Rooming with 2 philosophy majors warps the mind even if it was 60 years ago.  Conundrums raised back then still hang around.  It was the heyday of Bertrand Russell before he became a crank.  One idea being bandied about back then was the ‘pure percept’ — a sensation produced by the periphery  before the brain got to mucking about with it.   My memory about the concept was a bit foggy so who better to ask than two philosophers I knew.

The first was my nephew, a Rhodes in philosophy, now an attorney with a Yale degree.  I got this back when I asked —

I would be delighted to be able to tell you that my two bachelors’ degrees in philosophy — from the leading faculties on either side of the Atlantic — leave me more than prepared to answer your question. Unfortunately, it would appear I wasn’t that diligent. I focused on moral and political philosophy, and although the idea of a “pure precept” rings a bell, I can’t claim to have a concrete grasp on what that phrase means, much less a commanding one.

 Just shows what a Yale degree does to the mind.

So I asked a classmate, now an emeritus prof. of philosophy and got this back
This pp nonsense was concocted because Empiricists [Es]–inc. Russell, in his more empiricistic moods–believed that the existence of pp was a necessary condition for empirical knowledge. /Why? –>
1. From Plato to Descartes, philosophers often held that genuine Knowledge [K] requires beliefs that are “indubitable” [=beyond any possible doubt]; that is, a belief counts as K only if it [or at least its ultimate source] is beyond doubt. If there were no such indubitable source for belief, skepticism would win: no genuine K, because no beliefs are beyond doubt. “Pure percepts” were supposed to provide the indubitable source for empirical K.
2. Empirical K must originate in sensory data [=percepts] that can’t be wrong, because they simply copy external reality w/o any cognitive “shopping” [as in Photoshop]. In order to avoid any possible ‘error’, percepts must be pure in that they involve no interpretation [= error-prone cognitive manipulation].
{Those Es who contend  that all K derives from our senses tend to ignore mathematical and other allegedly a priori K, which does not “copy” the sensible world.} In sum, pp are sensory data prior to [=unmediated by] any cognitive processing.

So it seems as though the concept is no longer taken seriously.

I’ve written about this before — as it applies to the retina — https://luysii.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/retinal-physiology-and-the-demise-of-the-pure-percept/

This time it involves the ear and eye movements.  Time for some anatomy.  Behind the eardrum are 3 tiny little bones (malleus, incus and stapes — the latter looking just like a stirrup with the foot plate pressed against an opening in the bone to communicate movement of the eardrum produced by sound waves to the delicate mechanisms of the inner ear).  There is a a tiny muscle just 1 millimeter long called the stapedius which stabilizes the stapes making it vibrate less protecting the inner ear against loud sounds.  There is another muscle called the tensor tympani which tenses the eardrum meaning that external sounds vibrate it less.  It protects us against loud sounds.

An article in PNAS (vol. 115 pp. 1309 – E1318 ’18) shows that just moving your eyes to a target causes the eardrum to oscillate.  Even more interesting, the eardrum movements occur 10 milliSeconds before you move your eye.  The oscillations last throughout the eye movement and will into subsequent periods of steady fixation.

It is well recognized in addition to the brain receiving nerve input from the inner ear, it sends nerves to the inner ear to control it.  So ‘the brain’ is controlling the sense organs proving input to it.  Of course the whole question of control in a situation with feedback is up in the air — see https://luysii.wordpress.com/2011/11/20/life-may-not-be-like-a-well-but-control-of-events-in-the-cell-is-like-a-box-spring-mattress/

As soon as feedback (or simultaneous influence) enters the picture it becomes like the three body problem in physics, where 3 objects influence each other’s motion at the same time by the gravitational force. As John Gribbin (former science writer at Natureand now prolific author) said in his book ‘Deep Simplicity’, “It’s important to appreciate, though, that the lack of solutions to the three-body problem is not caused by our human deficiencies as mathematicians; it is built into the laws of mathematics.” As John Gribbin (former science writer at Natureand now prolific author) said in his book ‘Deep Simplicity’, “It’s important to appreciate, though, that the lack of solutions to the three-body problem is not caused by our human deficiencies as mathematicians; it is built into the laws of mathematics.” The physics problem is actually much easier than the brain because we know the exact strength and form of the gravitational force. We aren’t even close to this for a single synapse.

So much work, so little progress

Two years ago, I found going to a memorial service for a friend and classmate who died of Alzheimer’s curiously uplifting  (see the link at the end). The disease is far from ignored. A monster review in Neuron vol. 97 pp. 32 – 58 ’18 — http://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(17)31081-4  contained references to over 400 research articles half of them published since January 2013.

Still I found it quite depressing.  Tons of work and tons findings, and yet no coherent path to the cause (or causes); something absolutely necessary for a rational treatment, unless we somehow stumble into a therapy.

In a way it’s like cancer.  The cancer genome atlas intensively studied the genome of various cancers, looking for ‘the’ or ‘the set of’ causative mutations.  They found way too much.  The average colon and breast cancer had an average of 93 mutated genes, of which 11 were thought to be cancer promoting.  Not only that, but the same 11 were not consistent from tumor to tumor.

So it is with this epic review.  Which of the myriad findings described are causative of the disease and which are responses of the nervous system to the ’cause’ (or causes).

In the review the authors posit that Alzheimer’s disease is due to failure of ‘homeostatic systems’ that maintain a ‘set point’ of neuronal firing.  Unfortunately what is measured to determine the set point isn’t known. This seems to be an example of redefining a question into an answer.  Clearly if you juice up neuronal firing rates by stimulation they come back down, or if you inhibit them, they come back up.  So you can operationally define set point without defining it mechanistically.   It must be due to some sort of feedback on whatever it is that is sensing ‘the set point’ , but what is it that is being sensed?

The following is from an earlier post but is quite relevant to homeostasis and set points.

The whole notion of control in the presence of feedback is far from clear cut.  Here’s the story of the first inklings of feedback in endocrinology.  I watched it happen.

Endocrinology was pretty simple in med school back in the 60s. All the target endocrine glands (ovary, adrenal, thyroid, etc.) were controlled by the pituitary; a gland about the size of a marble sitting an inch or so directly behind the bridge of your nose. The pituitary released a variety of hormones into the blood (one or more for each target gland) telling the target glands to secrete, and secrete they did. That’s why the pituitary was called the master gland back then.  The master gland ruled.

Things became a bit more complicated when it was found that a small (4 grams or so out of 1500) part of the brain called the hypothalamus sitting just above the pituitary was really in control, telling the pituitary what and when to secrete. Subsequently it was found that the hormones secreted by the target glands (thyroid, ovary, etc.) were getting into the hypothalamus and altering its effects on the pituitary. Estrogen is one example. Any notion of simple control vanished into an ambiguous miasma of setpoints, influences and equilibria. Goodbye linearity and simple notions of causation.

As soon as feedback (or simultaneous influence) enters the picture it becomes like the three body problem in physics, where 3 objects influence each other’s motion at the same time by the gravitational force. As John Gribbin (former science writer at Natureand now prolific author) said in his book ‘Deep Simplicity’, “It’s important to appreciate, though, that the lack of solutions to the three-body problem is not caused by our human deficiencies as mathematicians; it is built into the laws of mathematics.” The physics problem is actually much easier than endocrinology, because we know the exact strength and form of the gravitational force.

https://luysii.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/an-uplifting-way-to-start-the-new-year/